Pet Health Insights with The Pet Health Zone | Dr. Jules Benson

[00:00:00] >> Dr. Jules Benson: How do we find a way to get data to people about their pet’s health risks, while at the same time giving them a really cool learning experience?

[00:00:09] >> Announcer: Welcome to Dog Cancer Answers, where we help you help your dog with cancer. [00:00:15]

[00:00:16] >> Molly Jacobson: Hello, dog lover. I’m Molly Jacobson. I’m the editor-in-chief of DogCancer.com. Today’s guest is Dr. Jules Benson from Nationwide Pet Health Insurance. He’s the chief veterinary officer there and a [00:00:30] total data geek. So he has been looking for several years now at a million plus claims that Nationwide, the nation’s largest pet insurer, has collected and paid out on. He’s got a lot of data [00:00:45] to look at about what dogs, cats, and other animals have been dealing with and facing over the years.

[00:00:52] His team has been analyzing all of that data and writing white papers or sort of informational papers on what they [00:01:00] find. And now, they’ve launched a new tool that anybody can use and you don’t have to read. You can literally just put in a few points about your dog and get a lot of information back about what they might be facing [00:01:15] in the future.

[00:01:16] Today, our host, James Jacobson sits down with Dr. Jules Benson, who walks us through the Pet HealthZone. This website has already helped James and I look into the future for our little rescue dog, [00:01:30] Chloe, a maltipoo, and give us a little heads up about what might be coming down the pike in the next couple of years for our senior dog.

[00:01:37] Today’s episode is for you if you are wondering about a dog that you have. have currently, [00:01:45] but also if you’re thinking about getting a new dog and you know what kind of dog you might want to get, or you’re considering getting a specific dog in your local shelter, you can plug in their data and see what might be happening, not only to that [00:02:00] dog, but in your area in the future.

[00:02:03] So let’s join James Jacobson now as he speaks with Dr. Jules Benson.

[00:02:08] >> James Jacobson: Dr. Jules Benson, thank you so much for being with us today.

[00:02:12] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I’m glad to be here, James.

[00:02:13] >> James Jacobson: So you have been on the [00:02:15] show a few times as I was joking with you beforehand as you’ve got your like frequent flyer miles on Dog Cancer Answers.

[00:02:21] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I think so. I’m hoping to redeem them for some kind of plush toy or maybe a drink. I mean, it’s a.

[00:02:27] >> James Jacobson: A medallion status or something like that. Yes, [00:02:30] we’ll do that. I think if you hit five, then you, you get something special. We’ll give you a Dog Podcast Network coffee mug. So on this episode though, I want to look at a new tool that you guys have recently [00:02:45] introduced to the public and it’s obviously designed a little bit to sell insurance, but what it is is a pretty interesting way to, you know, find out more about your dog and their health risk. It’s called Pet [00:03:00] HealthZone. Tell us about it.

[00:03:02] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah, so the Pet HealthZone, so www.ThePetHealthZone.

[00:03:06] >> James Jacobson: The, mustn’t forget that, okay. Is the other place going to bring us to a naughty place that we don’t want to visit?

[00:03:11] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I hope not.

[00:03:12] >> James Jacobson: Okay.

[00:03:13] >> Dr. Jules Benson: But, the Pet HealthZone, we launched [00:03:15] this back in June of last year with initially 50 dog breeds. We just updated that, so now we have, I think, just over a hundred dog breeds and 11 cats. So I know we’re Dog Cancer Answers, but I’m sure we have some cat people out there as well.

[00:03:27] >> James Jacobson: We do. Sometimes they have cats [00:03:30] to, to accommodate the dogs.

[00:03:31] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So the Pet HealthZone really is, we started out using our data and this is, this is what I talked to Molly about before with our white papers, like trying to really find ways to dig into our millions of years of insurance data and find meaningful ways to reach pet families and [00:03:45] veterinary health care teams with that.

[00:03:46] I think what we, what we were understanding as we’re going through this was that it’s great to provide this very deep and very, in some ways, academic information and to be able to come on things like Dog Cancer Answers and be able to explain that for pet families. [00:04:00] But what we’re missing was how can we reach pet families directly and how can we make this a really good learning experience for them?

[00:04:06] Because I think one of the things I recognize being in an animal health industry and when I was in practice is that education can be, [00:04:15] it could be boring. Like, if you, I mean, from my own health care, I’m like, I know I need to read this about my own health care, but I’m like, oh my god, it feels, it feels like I’m being grilled on like, what are the things that I need to know about my health?

[00:04:26] And I think one of the, the things that really stuck out with the Pet HealthZone, one of our team [00:04:30] members struck on the word, which is, delight. We want it to be a delightful experience. We want it to be something.

[00:04:35] >> James Jacobson: Kind of like Amazon is there to delight their customers. So you’re there to delight people who are checking out their pet’s health.

[00:04:42] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Well, unlike Amazon, who are not delighting my wallet [00:04:45] at any point in recent history, the Pet HealthZone is free to access. But yeah, the experience was really, how do we find a way to get data to people about their pet’s health risks, while at the same time giving them a really cool learning experience?

[00:04:58] And so that’s why, [00:05:00] and you, you spend some time, James, and I would love, I’d love to hear your thoughts around like, because it’s not a, it’s not a literally your pet is going to suffer from this, that, the other thing, it’s a very, I feel like a very soft or at least, you know, approachable way of looking at it. And I’d love to hear your thoughts about it.

[00:05:14] >> James Jacobson: Yeah, well, I’ll [00:05:15] have you walk through it and we’ll, we’ll look at my dog Chloe in a bit, because I think that’s kind of interesting to, to sort of explain what we’re doing.

[00:05:21] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Sure.

[00:05:22] >> James Jacobson: But in terms of your language, as you talk about, you know, one of the things as someone who reads a lot of white papers about cancer and about [00:05:30] medical issues, I have always been struck by how down to earth, jargon free it is and how easily, I mean, it’s pretty much what we do at, at DogCancer.com, which is make it kind of, you know, there’s a lot of meat [00:05:45] there, but you don’t have to use a lot of, you know, 5 dollar words to describe it, or if you do explain it.

[00:05:52] >> Dr. Jules Benson: And that was a goal. I mean, and it was one of those situations. Actually, we talk about this a lot internally at Nationwide. This is one of our first projects using [00:06:00] generative AI. So we actually use generative AI to source some of the information, or to actually to interpret the information to a reading level that would feel approachable for pet families. So we were using practical sources that went through I think at least three or four different sets of veterinarian’s [00:06:15] eyes to make sure that the content is accurate and helpful.

[00:06:19] But we really wanted to make sure that, this one of the things that generative AI I found is really good for in terms of saving time, it’s like, can you give me 137 characters at a ninth grade reading level [00:06:30] based on these sentences? And it’s, it’s amazing because you know, if you’ve worked in copying or anything else that it’s just, it’s so difficult sometimes to cram things into how you want them.

[00:06:38] So we’re on the AI train as far as helping to create content for pet families that is approachable and legible and [00:06:45] readable.

[00:06:45] >> James Jacobson: Okay. I just have to make note for those who are watching the YouTube version of this. You have a cat who is all of a sudden appeared and is very happy behind you. I didn’t realize I thought your background was a sculpture. I didn’t realize it’s cat sculpture.

[00:06:59] >> Dr. Jules Benson: It [00:07:00] is. It is cat sculpture. He is, he is very unhappy at the moment because I’m not giving him treats.

[00:07:05] >> James Jacobson: Oh I see, okay.

[00:07:05] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Um, but it was, but it’s excellent timing. I didn’t pay him to do this.

[00:07:08] >> James Jacobson: Right.

[00:07:09] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Uh, but.

[00:07:09] >> James Jacobson: Well, recently we were interviewing a veterinarian and their cockatoo [00:07:15] came up into the shot and like stared at the camera. And it was very hard for me to maintain composure, so that’s okay. But cats, cats are easy. So the generative AI is, is interesting. So you basically did use AI to help, you know, [00:07:30] make sure the language was easy. But as you say, this is all vetted by, by vets.

[00:07:33] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Absolutely. Yeah. And all internals.

[00:07:35] >> James Jacobson: Kind of like what we do at DogCancer.com.

[00:07:37] >> Dr. Jules Benson: That’s right. And all internal as well. So I think one of the things, and myself working in the industry for such a long time, often these projects are [00:07:45] sent to agencies or they’re sent to somebody else to do or to do the mechanics of this, everything that’s done within the Pet HealthZone is performed by the team at Nationwide.

[00:07:53] So we have data scientists, we have award winning authors, we have, uh, veterinarians. So these are, this really is [00:08:00] a, an internal effort, you know, our contribution to how do we try and get the best quality information out there that we can.

[00:08:05] >> James Jacobson: Absolutely. So let’s, I guess, give folks who are both listening and watching a little tour of this, of the [00:08:15] Pet HealthZone. Uh, I have a, six-year-old Maltipoo. We don’t know exactly for sure because we rescued her. Her name is Chloe, which is interesting because your site also talks about like common names for breeds.

[00:08:28] >> Dr. Jules Benson: It does.

[00:08:28] >> James Jacobson: And of course, a [00:08:30] Maltipoo isn’t really a breed. It’s a mix.

[00:08:32] >> Dr. Jules Benson: It’s a hybrid. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:08:35] >> James Jacobson: Um, but the granularity of what you have enables you to say, yes, I have a Maltipoo.

[00:08:40] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah.

[00:08:41] >> James Jacobson: And you, you learn different things. So, you know, I learned, they know [00:08:45] she’s a crossbreed and a little bit about her and her energy level, but it was kind of between a couch and a lightning bolt. I’m assuming between like.

[00:08:52] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Between a potato and a lunatic. I think it’s kind of.

[00:08:55] >> James Jacobson: So you had all of the things lit for that. So I’m assuming that it could be [00:09:00] any of that, which is very true.

[00:09:01] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I think if it’s fully lit then it’s towards the lightning bolt side of things of like things can get pretty crazy in the Maltipoo house, apparently.

[00:09:08] >> James Jacobson: I get it. Yes. And she can also just be very adorable when she, when she lays to get long belly rubs. [00:09:15] And, you know, so basically bark level talkative, you know, right on for this hybrid breed, but that’s kind of the stuff that you can get all over the web. Um, and then, you know, learn a little bit about pet health planner, which I think is a very clever thing, a service mark [00:09:30] where you can basically look at things that you can experience both, you know, as she’s a puppy and a young adult. She’s a mature adult now, I guess, between six and nine and senior.

[00:09:40] And so this is kind of what is interesting. And this is based [00:09:45] on this vast amount of data, I imagine, that you guys have amassed with how many claims now, how many dogs and cats do you have in your database?

[00:09:53] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So it’s, this is based on about 23 million years of play of, of dogs, I believe. So pets actually, so cats [00:10:00] as well.

[00:10:00] >> James Jacobson: You don’t mean years.

[00:10:00] >> Dr. Jules Benson: 23 million years. Uh, so.

[00:10:02] >> James Jacobson: Oh, I see. If a dog lives to 10, that’s 10 years.

[00:10:05] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Exactly.

[00:10:06] >> James Jacobson: That’s a way to boost that number. Okay. Yeah.

[00:10:09] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Well, I mean, that, that’s.

[00:10:10] >> James Jacobson: How many months?

[00:10:11] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I mean.

[00:10:11] >> James Jacobson: Yeah.

[00:10:11] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Being an insurance, being an company, [00:10:15] that is how we look at, you know, we call that exposures, right? There’s a number of months or a year, like you basically say, if you’re writing a policy for a year, that is one year of exposure. This is one year that we are insuring this pet. So for us, it’s a very natural term to say, It’s this number of years that we [00:10:30] have access to to look at our data, and I think I will probably mess this up so my team will castigate me, but I believe it’s about 16 million claims within that. So an enormous number of claims.

[00:10:39] >> James Jacobson: A lot of claims, a lot of years of pet life. And is this like compile? I mean, you know, [00:10:45] I think of the actuarials who, you know, do all that stuff on the human health side. And I imagine also you have a bunch of actuarials who are now on the pet health side.

[00:10:56] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So we do, and we do work with our pricing and actuarial [00:11:00] team, but we also have data scientists who are dedicated to our pet health efforts as well. So we actually have within the team data analysts, we have a veterinarian who is also a data scientist and a machine learning expert. We have somebody who has worked in on the insurance side in data for over 20 [00:11:15] years.

[00:11:15] So again, this is, we do have the benefit of reaching across Nationwide and across our own organization, but we also have a lot of expertise that we’ve built really around this pet health data over the past probably five years or so that we’ve been doing put some really heavy lifting on the data side.

[00:11:28] >> James Jacobson: And that’s obviously you know [00:11:30] for the preservation of the bottom line the profitability to make sure that you know, you guys can sustain that but then it has applicability to pet owners to understand a little bit more about what’s happening or what could happen.

[00:11:42] >> Dr. Jules Benson: To a degree man, I think. I think the specificity that we’re [00:11:45] getting into with the data that’s in the Pet HealthZone, that’s not necessarily something that pricing team are always interested in because they’re basically hey, if I have a six-year-old Maltipoo, they’re interested in what is the accumulation of things that have happened to it and therefore what premiums have to be. It’s it’s [00:12:00] not as useful to them in this form unless that the coverage things change.

[00:12:04] So, so to us it really was when we talk about how we’d like to approach our members at Nationwide It’s like how do we be effortless, personal and reassuring? And so for us, this is the tip of the iceberg to me around. How do [00:12:15] we get some more granular ways of communicating and educating pet families? So this is very much the start of how do we enhance the experience? How do we, you know, really make you feel like we understand you and your pet and how do we create opportunities to educate you and to even, you know, [00:12:30] Intervene ahead of time when we think there might be something that could happen.

[00:12:33] >> James Jacobson: So again, this is Dog Cancer Answers and I was very relieved to see in my pet health planner that cancer was not one of the things that, you know is a likely outcome.

[00:12:44] >> Dr. Jules Benson: It’s a high risk.

[00:12:44] >> James Jacobson: [00:12:45] So i’m assuming that other breeds would indicate that.

[00:12:50] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yes, indeed. So, and talking to, to Molly previously, so they, some of the, the data that we’d had in our white papers and very broadly were that, you know, cancers unfortunately are more common in [00:13:00] purebred dogs, that they’re high risk and that they are, the higher risk in dogs as they go up the size.

[00:13:05] So you’ve got this great mix of all these things of not being a purebred dog and of being a dog that is a, you know, small to medium sized dog, and so [00:13:15] Immediately the risk lowers. So let’s go to the other end of that and say, okay, what about, uh, and you guys know all of these breeds and what about the Bernese Mountain Dog, the Bernese Mountain Dogs, the Rottweilers, the Golden Retrievers, absolutely like.

[00:13:27] And a Bernese Mountain Dog is a great example of like, [00:13:30] when you go to a, you know, a senior Bernese Mountain Dog, then you’re seeing lymphoma, you’re seeing a splenic cancer, you’re seeing bone cancer, right, these are the top three that pop up for these breeds. And so, a lot of this really is to me, and I’ll relay a story about, being in [00:13:45] practice.

[00:13:45] I was seeing a Rottweiler, I think a seven or eight year old Rottweiler come in with the whole family were there and this dog, and there are certain breeds that we see often enough and that we see cancer in often enough. And you talked about Golden Retrievers and, and I’m sure [00:14:00] many episodes have been dedicated to splenic cancer, splenic hemangiosarcoma in Golden Retrievers.

[00:14:04] So there are things that happen when you see a, when you know, a 12 year old Golden Retrievers coming in and they’re not doing well, and they’ve been lying on the floor and they don’t seem like they’re doing great, immediately our veterinarian brains light up [00:14:15] with. I’m hopeful that it’s not, but it probably is hemangiosarcoma.

[00:14:18] The same thing with a six or seven year old Rottweiler. If it’s something that is unusual that’s happening, your first thought is, often goes to cancer. And like, we have to eliminate, you know, this from the diagnosis list. And so [00:14:30] this dog came in and we went through, you know, some, some basic diagnostics that the, the dog’s lymph nodes were very, uh, enlarged, uh, did a quick slide and saw, you know, lots of lymphocytes there.

[00:14:42] And so the, the presumptive diagnosis at that point is that this dog has [00:14:45] lymphoma. And so, speaking to the family, there was just no awareness that this could be a possibility, and the father of the family immediately went into denial and anger, those stages of grief.

[00:14:56] >> James Jacobson: Right.

[00:14:56] >> Dr. Jules Benson: And actually became really agitated. [00:15:00] And again, I understand the feeling, but I think for me, just thinking about it in retrospect, like him having the, the opportunity. And this is, this is one of the reasons we created the Pet HealthZone was if you’re sitting in the waiting room and you’re, you’re coming in with your dog instead of me, [00:15:15] doom scrolling Facebook, which probably speaks more to my age than it does anything else.

[00:15:18] I’m not cool enough for TikTok or anything, but instead of doom scrolling some kind of form of social media, being able to sit there and say, okay, well, I do have a Rottweiler. I do have this. And, and, oh, my, these are high risk conditions for this dog. Having [00:15:30] that awareness of a thing that could happen breaks down some of those barriers to communication and I think just some of the awareness of this is in the realms of the possible now.

[00:15:39] >> James Jacobson: Yeah. They think they’re going in for like, it’s a little bit of, you know, arthritis and then [00:15:45] it’s something much bigger.

[00:15:46] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So even when, even when there’s something that we couldn’t do in that case, I mean, the dog is already in the exam room, it allows the pet owner to have a different experience than they might have otherwise, and it allows the veterinary healthcare team to have a different experience than they might have otherwise as well. So for us, there’s a, [00:16:00] at least a, a level of communication education that can happen that, that eases some of this process.

[00:16:05] >> James Jacobson: So for Chloe, there are three health concerns. I imagine it’s not limited to three. It’s as many as you guys commonly see.

[00:16:13] >> Dr. Jules Benson: It’s the three that are the highest [00:16:15] risk and that frankly have the highest chance of us preventing or intervening. So it’s a combination of those two things. So when we see Bernese Mountain Dog, for example, we have those three cancers. We’re not certainly going to have a huge opportunity to intervene, but early awareness and [00:16:30] intervention, as we know at Dog Cancer Answers, can have real repercussions on, you know, what is our opportunity to, to treat? What is our opportunity to get to a situation where we can do the best for our pets?

[00:16:40] So to us, the early education side for those, even though we can’t necessarily stop the disease [00:16:45] process, if we can get them in and seen, you know, if our dog stops eating, we know that that might be a risk.

[00:16:50] If our senior Rottweiler, you know, we see them limping, we don’t think it could be a sprain, it could be a sprain or it could be a cruciate ligament injury, but the fact that Rottweilers are 10 times more [00:17:00] likely to get bone cancer than other breeds, that gives them then the information to say, let’s not wait on this, let’s go straight in and have this seen to, and also give the veterinary healthcare team the opportunity to say, because of the other risks, we’re going to do some x-rays we can do some other things because of, we want to [00:17:15] make sure that we’re not seeing this other condition that could be obviously very dangerous and life threatening.

[00:17:19] >> James Jacobson: So it’s, you know, knowledge is power. So just knowing what is possible for your dog ahead of time empowers you to say not to dismiss it because oftentimes [00:17:30] veterinarians are not going to on a well puppy check going to say well, you really should be looking for this thing down the road because.

[00:17:37] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Right.

[00:17:37] >> James Jacobson: That just wouldn’t be very fun for anyone. Yeah.

[00:17:39] >> Dr. Jules Benson: It’s also hard. So I think so as a veterinarian I had Bernese Mountain dogs in our practice, but I probably only [00:17:45] saw, I want to say less than 10, so I knew some things that happened and I had my own experience to count on then but The Pet HealthZone uses data from 25, 000 years of Bernese Mountain Dog. So, that’s as if, if I had been in practice and [00:18:00] had seen, you know, if I was seeing them for an average of eight years, I would have to seen over 3, 000 dogs to gather that level of experience.

[00:18:07] So, it’s common that when we talk about Goldens, when we talk about Labs, we talk about, you know, German Shepherds, like dogs that are fairly common. We’ve seen them [00:18:15] often enough that we kind of have a really good idea of what’s going on there, but when you get further down the list, whether it’s Berners, whether it’s Rottweilers, whether it’s Havanese, whether it’s Maltipoos, there’s not a lot of data about those dogs that exist at the moment, so we see this really as a primary source of really consequential and significant [00:18:30] data.

[00:18:30] And for any of the stats nerds out there, uh, You know that we, when we talk about, you know, and I know you’re used to this James, when you talk about, you know, probability values when you talk about he is greater than or equal to 0.05, our stats are actually based on a [00:18:45] 0.01 and adjusted from the number of tests we’re doing. So that the statistical significance is extremely strong. That’s important for us. Like, well, this isn’t a marketing exercise. This is how do we provide information that is most useful and most relevant to pet families.

[00:18:58] >> James Jacobson: Right. But it does do a good [00:19:00] marketing job because like, for example, for the things that Chloe could have, like, you know, the dental, which is seems to always be the problem with, with my animals, I don’t know, little, little animals have, uh, bad teeth.

[00:19:13] >> Dr. Jules Benson: A hundred percent.

[00:19:13] >> James Jacobson: You know, the potential cost is [00:19:15] $940. In theory, I typed in my zip code. I don’t think that would actually be the going rate where I live, but we’ll go with that.

[00:19:22] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yes. It’s a great example. So the costs are not regionalized at the moment. That is something we’re working on, but it’s again, this is more of an exercise of, this is [00:19:30] the area this could be in, let’s be at least have an awareness of what the cost could be.

[00:19:33] And I think when you get to cancers, for example, those are the three thousands and five thousands just trying to drive the awareness of what are the things that we can expect to, again, even if you’re not insured, if you don’t have insurance, at least [00:19:45] having the awareness of what the costs could be for both the pet family and for the veterinary health care team because obviously those conversations are difficult.

[00:19:51] >> James Jacobson: So when it comes to cancer I mean I, 3,000 sounds very small. I think the average that I know of and it’s been this way for years is five to eight thousand [00:20:00] dollars on average and.

[00:20:02] >> Dr. Jules Benson: And, and depends on the cancer depends on what you’re doing. But yeah, sure. There’s absolutely some, yeah. And this is focusing on the first 30 days generally. So if we’re talking about lymphoma, this will be, What is our diagnostics? What are our initial treatments? And then obviously there’s a longer period. [00:20:15] So the price is an area that we are, the cost of care is an area that we’re experimenting with. But things like lymphoma, where we have a longer tail, no pun intended, should we be using a 12 month period for that rather than the 30 day period?

[00:20:27] So again, trying to provide more and more accuracy with this to try and [00:20:30] make sure that people have a better awareness of what could be going on.

[00:20:33] >> Molly Jacobson: Let me pause here and break in for a quick word about our sponsor, DogCancer.com, where all we do is bring you awareness about what might be going on in your own dog’s cancer, [00:20:45] lymphoma, or any other kind.

[00:20:47] We are a team of veterinarians, veterinary oncologists, cancer researchers, and science writers who all understand what it’s like to have a dog with cancer. We really get the emotional side of this [00:21:00] and we also understand how much information there is out there for you to sift through. So we try to make it all make sense and write in plain language so you can understand everything that’s being said and bring it back to your own veterinarian to see how it might apply to [00:21:15] your dog’s case.

[00:21:16] That’s DogCancer.com. Go there anytime you have a question, start your research there. That’s DogCancer.com. And now let’s go back to our conversation with James Jacobson and Dr. Jules [00:21:30] Benson of Nationwide Pet Insurance.

[00:21:32] >> James Jacobson: So this tool is gonna evolve to incorporate, ’cause it did ask for my zip code.

[00:21:36] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yes.

[00:21:36] >> James Jacobson: So it’ll go to look at what a cancer treatment would be in, in your zip code.

[00:21:41] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Correct.

[00:21:41] >> James Jacobson: And based on that type of cancer. And then of course, you know, well this is how [00:21:45] much you would pay, but with pet insurance, it would be this. So, for example, for, for dental, $940, but anyway, pet insurance would be 94. And I’m assuming that actually is pretty accurate because that is what.

[00:21:57] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah.

[00:21:57] >> James Jacobson: Yeah. So it’s, it makes a very [00:22:00] powerful statement, which is of course, you know, the marketing rationale, the reason you all are doing this is to educate people about pet insurance. And it’s overall value, which I think not enough Americans appreciate. And you [00:22:15] went to school, you’re not actually from the United States, right?

[00:22:17] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I’m not from the US. I’m from the UK originally. So we, we have a different perspective on on pet health insurance.

[00:22:23] >> James Jacobson: Way different. Will you, will you share that with folks because I think that most people don’t know about this difference.

[00:22:29] >> Dr. Jules Benson: [00:22:30] Yeah, so in the UK, and the numbers vary, but about 30 percent, 30 percent of pets are insured in the UK. And it’s, it really does change the way that people kinda look at veterinary care.

[00:22:41] >> James Jacobson: Versus America, which is currently?

[00:22:43] >> Dr. Jules Benson: It’s about 3%. [00:22:45] Yeah.

[00:22:45] >> James Jacobson: And that’s an improvement over just a few years ago.

[00:22:48] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah. Yeah. So the pet health insurance industry in the US is growing fairly rapidly. I mean, and if you look at any industry and you said it’s growing 20 percent year over year, that’s a high growth industry. But of course, when you’re growing from 2 and [00:23:00] 3%, yeah. that can still feel unsatisfying knowing that there are so many pets out there that could use these types of services.

[00:23:07] >> James Jacobson: So culturally, do you think is it because like in the UK, you have National Health Service and it’s socialized medicine so people kind of [00:23:15] have that expectation or what do you suppose?

[00:23:17] >> Dr. Jules Benson: There’s a few different reasons. I think veterinarians have been a little gun shy to be as involved as, as they could or should be I think in the UK for example, the regulations are also different in that you can actually, if you get a new [00:23:30] puppy or a new pet You can walk out of a veterinary clinic with 30 days of free insurance, and that’s a great way to get people started and to show the value proposition and to, and we just can’t do that here.

[00:23:39] That’s not the way that insurance is allowed to work in the US. And I think that the human health care system [00:23:45] here and the experiences people have had with insurance have, you know, quite rightly perhaps stopped veterinarians engaging historically. I think they’re having more and more positive experiences.

[00:23:53] I think we’re getting more and more veterinarians who are interested. And I think we’ve seen that in the growth of the number of companies who are selling pet insurance, [00:24:00] right? We’ve seen that grow quite appreciably in the last 10 or 15 years. And I think the consumer awareness, I think we, our job as insurers has to be to continue to show the value proposition to show how it works for them.

[00:24:11] And I think that continues to be a good problem to have for us. And [00:24:15] one of the areas that we’re working in is how do we provide insurance solutions and pet health solutions that make sense to more people and that one size does not fit all. We know that pet families are not a monolith. We know that they want different things and they want to consume health care in different ways. And the [00:24:30] products have to reflect that too. So, we have some new products on the market and some new things coming out. So it’s a, it’s an exciting time to be in the industry.

[00:24:37] >> Molly Jacobson: Let’s pause here for another moment to hear from our generous sponsors. And then we’ll be right back with more from Dr. Jules Benson [00:24:45] about the differences between the US and the UK regarding pet health insurance.

[00:24:54] And we’re back with James Jacobson and Dr. Jules Benson of Nationwide Pet Insurance. [00:25:00]

[00:25:00] >> James Jacobson: And in terms of the distinction between the UK, obviously you have, I mean, I’m going to make this clear, you know, that, that is government sponsored health care for humans, but there’s no government involvement in that for pets.

[00:25:11] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. And you’re right. And I think we, [00:25:15] in the US we have a greater mentality around understanding or knowing that we might be paying for our own healthcare and therefore our, for our pets’, healthcare.

[00:25:22] And so perhaps the incentive to insure can feel less. I think that the most avid proponents of pet health [00:25:30] insurance that I’ve met, have often been people who’ve been through, you know, very expensive situations with their pets before, and not that they regretted it, but certainly from a personal finance and a risk management point of view, having an insurance plan or something in place, certainly would have helped them.

[00:25:44] >> James Jacobson: [00:25:45] Right. And as I think anyone who’s dealing with anyone who’s watching this listening to this probably knows just how expensive veterinary care can be when you’re dealing with like cancer. And again, the idea is sort of is you start early and then you [00:26:00] know rates do escalate over time, but the fact that you start early that reduces that.

[00:26:05] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah, I mean, the starting early, I think one of the ways we’ve tried to mold the Pet HealthZone is so the, the age period, the life stages, if you like, those are specific to [00:26:15] each breed. So they are designed to emulate the way that you experience your pet’s life. You know, you wouldn’t call a six-year-old, and we’ve lost the cat, you wouldn’t call a six-year-old Chihuahua a senior, but you might call it a six-year-old English Bulldog senior just because their life expectancy and their, and their [00:26:30] lived experience is different.

[00:26:31] So this is meant to mimic that. And so exactly as you said before, being able to say, Okay, even if I have a puppy or a young adult being able to step through the life stages and know what I can expect in terms of high risk conditions again to us, [00:26:45] that just felt like a natural, you know, extension of our data to say these are some of the reasons that either being having an awareness and then having a financial plan around it seems like a good idea.

[00:26:55] >> James Jacobson: So again, to use Chloe as an example, if she were just a puppy a zero to [00:27:00] six, you know a lot of low risk for things in general, but the things that are risk or like ear infection gastritis and trauma. An ear infection is, you know $267 which is a lot less than whatever and so people may not do it when [00:27:15] they’re younger, but certainly as the dog ages, perhaps a more economically prudent thing would be to do like, okay, the dog’s getting up there and now we need to, to insure her dog.

[00:27:26] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah. And obviously the pessimist in me always says, you know, like [00:27:30] having everything on board, I mean, so the, the, the, I mean, trauma is an interesting one because, you know, we can, that’s such a wide range of things, whether it’s getting, you know, horribly, you know, whether it’s attacked by another dog, which is terrible or whether it’s breaking your leg, those things can be very different things.

[00:27:43] And then skin [00:27:45] allergies is a super interesting one as well. We talk about, I think we can get very animated about dramatic conditions that can have, you know, vast consequences over short periods of time, and cancers are a great example of that. But I think people who live with pets who have skin allergies, which is still our number one [00:28:00] claim, it’s, A, can be very difficult to manage. B, very expensive to manage and frankly can last the whole life of the pet.

[00:28:06] So that’s when we come back to when is it worth having insurance as well, I mean insurance before anything starts because, because in pet insurance we do have pre-existing conditions, like if a pet is [00:28:15] already has allergic skin disease, it won’t be covered for that pet if they insure it. So making sure that that they have a pet isurance policy in place before things that can feel, can feel innocuous, you know, ear infections and skin allergies can sound innocuous, but they can be very expensive and obviously chronic.

[00:28:29] >> James Jacobson: [00:28:30] Are there things that are pre-existing conditions that are not cancer that an adjuster would look at and say, no, you, that dog had that, so we won’t pay for after the cancer diagnosis?

[00:28:43] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah, I think it’s [00:28:45] the, the, the way I, I always tell people to look at it is if you have any doubt whether something will be covered, just go ahead and make the assumption that it won’t be and then see if the value proposition is still worth it.

[00:28:54] So if your dog is limping and you’re worried it could be a, you know, a cruciate ligament [00:29:00] injury, assume that that won’t be covered if you take an insurance policy out now because the clinical signs have already started and from that point of view, if you really wanted to cover that cruciate ligament, that’s probably not going to be worth it to you for value proposition.

[00:29:10] But if you’re just now realizing how expensive care can be and you know the [00:29:15] cruciate ligament is not going to be covered, but you obviously want it for cancer or for allergies or whatever else, then go ahead and do it and I would say speak to a licensed insurance agent and have some of these conversations. Yeah.

[00:29:23] >> James Jacobson: But as it relates to cancer in general which again is what a lot of people watching are Interested in [00:29:30] then so long as your dog has not been diagnosed.

[00:29:32] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So long as your dog is not showing clinical signs.

[00:29:34] >> James Jacobson: Clinical signs, okay.

[00:29:35] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So if your dog isn’t, has been, you know even if it’s not doing well, and we know the early signs of lymphoma can be subtle, for example. So if there are early signs of lymphoma that can be related to [00:29:45] the disease, that would not be covered by a policy.

[00:29:47] >> James Jacobson: What’s an example of an early sign that would not be covered?

[00:29:51] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So if you’ve noticed signs of chronic weight loss, for example.

[00:29:54] >> James Jacobson: Okay.

[00:29:54] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So and, and there’s no other, you know easy explanation for that apart from the, the then [00:30:00] post diagnosed lymphoma that is likely not to be a covered condition

[00:30:03] >> James Jacobson: Okay. And then there’s a waiting period before like between inception of policy and when it would be covered?

[00:30:10] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Correct. And, and that can vary by state. So I would say, you know, ask an agent or look online when they do.

[00:30:14] >> James Jacobson: Talk to [00:30:15] an agent. Okay. So the increased enthusiasm and interest in insurance that we’re seeing in the states, what do you attribute that to?

[00:30:24] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Uh, I think some of it is word of mouth.

[00:30:26] >> James Jacobson: Is it good marketing like this or is it something else?

[00:30:29] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I hope so. I [00:30:30] mean, I think we’re seeing more and more concerted marketing efforts that I think are speaking to more people. I think we’re seeing more veterinary healthcare teams who are enthusiastic about it. And I think we’re seeing more recognition of the increased cost of care. And when I talk about cost of care, I’m not talking about your veterinarian is putting up the cost of [00:30:45] their exam.

[00:30:45] I’m talking about, you know, if you think of where we were 10 years ago with cancer and cancer treatment, things have gone even so far in the last 10 years. So we’re not talking about just price increases, talking about the opportunities to do more. And so, you know, when that, when [00:31:00] that, that opportunity to provide more care and even the opportunity to see an oncologist, like I think if we, if we think about 25, 30 years ago, you had to go to a, you know, a veterinary teaching hospital to see an oncologist and now, you know, veterinary teaching hospitals are having trouble finding [00:31:15] oncologists because they’re all in private practice, right?

[00:31:16] I mean, I worked in Philadelphia and in the Philadelphia area we had, I want to say at least three or four oncologists within, you know, that kind of greater Philly metro. So access to care, being able to access advanced level care and the continuing [00:31:30] advancement of care continues to push up the cost of care. Now that has better outcomes for our pets, but it also comes at a cost.

[00:31:36] >> James Jacobson: And what about the role of things like telemedicine and like oncologists who consult but are not actually seeing your pet, but they’re working with your, with your [00:31:45] vet?

[00:31:45] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I love the teleconsulting model and for those who are uninitiated, telehealth is the broader area. And then we’ve got things like teletriage, which every Nationwide policy has a teletriage option. So 24/7, you can talk to any veterinary healthcare team members. If your pet ate something, or if you want to talk [00:32:00] about, and actually for cancer that my team and I, we think that telehealth is a great opportunity to talk about things like quality of life.

[00:32:06] How is my pet doing and what decisions can and should I be making and what should my expectations be? That’s a great telehealth consult, you know, a teletriage conversation. Then you’ve got telemedicine, [00:32:15] which is truly, I have a relationship with this veterinarian or I have a veterinary client patient relationship, and some people will be aware that the law is changing around the VCPR, as we call it, in several states. California and most recently Florida are examples. And that allows a veterinarian to treat your pet [00:32:30] and prescribe your pet via telephonic or, uh, by virtual.

[00:32:34]

[00:32:35] >> James Jacobson: Video. Zoom. Whatever, pick, pick your, pick your medium. Yeah.

[00:32:39] >> Dr. Jules Benson: And then we, and then teleconsulting, I think is a super cool model. So teleconsulting is I’m a veterinarian in general practice. I [00:32:45] see something that I’m, I don’t have a full awareness of, or I want to get a second opinion with. And so I can call an oncologist and have this great opportunity to aim, not just treat the pet within the primary care setting, but also as a veterinarian to augment my knowledge. You know, we’re talking about, they can call an [00:33:00] ophthalmologist, they can call an internal medicine specialist.

[00:33:02] Continuing education. And a lot of it is case based, right? It’s like, Hey, if this case happens and we can do this and that and the other thing, but there’s nothing to stimulate learning, like having your own case and relating that to your own personal experience with your client. And so I, I think it’s a great [00:33:15] model.

[00:33:15] >> James Jacobson: And that is covered by insurance.

[00:33:17] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Teleconsulting. Yeah. If it’s through the veterinarian. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:20] >> James Jacobson: So that’s a really, you know, we’re still in this infancy with that, but as we’ve talked about so often, there are only a few hundred veterinary oncologists [00:33:30] in all of North America and more and more of them are setting up that consultancy. So if you’re, have insurance and your vet wants to do it and it’s sort of a prudent thing.

[00:33:40] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Yeah. And it’s really exciting. I think as we start to see, you know, I have friends who’ve [00:33:45] worked in diagnostics, so, you know, basically virtual diagnostics. So the veterinarian takes the picture of the slide and they send it to a pathologist and it’s like, there’s some really cool things happening with technology that I think will, will really enable access to care for pet families in the next five to 10 years.[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] >> James Jacobson: Well, whenever I do one of these shows, I love to geek out on the technology. And so I loved what you’re talking about earlier in terms of the, you know, LLMs used to make this language better. But what do you see or what are you guys offering now that [00:34:15] leverages some of that technology?

[00:34:18] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So it’s really interesting. So I serve on the board of the Veterinary Innovation Council, which is a national body made up of veterinary leaders. And we have this conversation all the time about AI and what can and should we be doing from a [00:34:30] leadership position around AI. And I think we’re starting to see some of the really interesting cases around areas like radiology, you know, so in human medicine, we already know that the AI is being used increasingly in areas like radiology and pathology.

[00:34:42] And I think is we’re now starting to have the [00:34:45] conversations about what information should be available about how these models have been trained, you know, what are the ways in which there are quality control on the back end of, you know, is it just a machine looking at this or is it a person? And if it’s a person as well as an additional cost for that, and what are the things that we need to be aware of?

[00:34:58] So I think we’re really are [00:35:00] in the infancy of implementation of AI. The other area that we’re seeing increasingly now is clinical decision support. So being able to say, you know, Hey, these are your blood results and AI is going to look at them and compare them to all the other hundreds of thousands of pets that it’s seen [00:35:15] and say, based on these, I would be concerned about this, this, and this.

[00:35:18] So it’s not making any decisions about the health of your pet, but it is offering things up to the veterinarian. And if you’ve read around this, you’ll be aware that our brains are pretty good at having three to five pieces of [00:35:30] information in them. But once you get beyond that, it’s really hard for us to pass those together and to say, I’m going to take, you know, it’s the beautiful mind thing, right, of like, I’m going to take all these things and put them together in a genius way. And AI is really good at that.

[00:35:44] >> James Jacobson: It’s not [00:35:45] limited to three or five. It’s infinitely limited. Yeah.

[00:35:47] >> Dr. Jules Benson: 100%. And so having that level of support, so not AI making decisions about health care, but AI supporting our ability to provide health care. I think it’s a, a very exciting area. So, at Nationwide, we obviously do, [00:36:00] you know, we have irons in the fire around AI as everyone does at the moment, and I think we have a lot of really cool opportunities to, I mean, and I’m always a little, I think there are many things we can do that don’t require AI, and so I always get a little bit skittish when everyone says everything’s AI now, and it’s like, [00:36:15] everything, AI does a lot of things really well, but there’s also some really cool things we can do that don’t require AI.

[00:36:19] So Pet HealthZone, for example, like we use LLMs to help with some of the phrasing and the, and the, uh, the reading level, but those data are basic statistical interpretations of data. There’s nothing [00:36:30] AI in the way that we created the disease risks, but it’s still a really cool interpretation of data that hasn’t really been done in the same way before.

[00:36:37] >> James Jacobson: Mm hmm. And I happen to know that veterinarians and data scientists are not necessarily the best writers at like, you know, eighth grade. [00:36:45] And so maybe a little help from, uh, let’s make this more easily accessible.

[00:36:49] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Then we’ll take the help that we can get. And I think you thought about veterinarians and data scientists in the same breath so I’ll take the opportunity to say, I think we have an opportunity in veterinary medicine to really elevate and [00:37:00] emphasize the role of data scientists and veterinary medicine. And I think that’s something that we’ve, we’ve tried to do over the years. But you’ll know, for example, that in veterinary medicine, we don’t have unified coding, you know, like we do in human health care, and that limits our ability to then use the data in meaningful [00:37:15] ways.

[00:37:15] So we have a lot of opportunities in front of us to talk about how do we better organize data as a community and as a health care system.

[00:37:22] >> James Jacobson: Well, I’m intrigued with the fact that obviously Nationwide is best known for, I guess, human health and cars.

[00:37:28] >> Dr. Jules Benson: We got the jingle, yeah.

[00:37:29] >> James Jacobson: Yeah, [00:37:30] all that stuff. So what role does all the data and understanding and analytics about human health fit within what you’re doing, and is this in any way connected to, you know, One Health? [00:37:45]

[00:37:45] >> Dr. Jules Benson: That’s a great question. So, uh, we’re actually just in the middle of writing a couple of peer reviewed papers that talk about One Health and One Communication.

[00:37:52] >> James Jacobson: One Communication?

[00:37:53] >> Dr. Jules Benson: One Communication. So, uh, One Communication is a subset of One Health. which talks about how we can use learnings from, you know, [00:38:00] communication studies, basically translational. How do we use our learnings in human healthcare to parlay those things across to pet healthcare and make, you know, more meaningful communication opportunities for, for pet families.

[00:38:11] ‘Cause I think again, we talked about, you know, pet families are not a monolith, but it [00:38:15] can be hard in a veterinary setting to say, how do I treat you the way that you want to be treated without knowing more about people? So we’re actually doing some behavioral science research and how do we find ways to because the, the, the commonalities are everyone loves their pet. Everyone wants the [00:38:30] best for their pet and nobody wants to spend money if they don’t have to those are the basic commonalities.

[00:38:35] But within those there are pretty vast differences in how we want to consume veterinary health care. So whether that can be about convenience that just having the time so If you’re a very busy [00:38:45] person, I tend to think of myself as fairly time poor all the time. So I want veterinary healthcare that is more convenient. I will choose the medications or the treatments that are more convenient to me and potentially pay more for that versus someone else who maybe has the time and is willing to spend, you know, more time and [00:39:00] potentially save money that way. Like there’s just different ways we can talk about healthcare delivery.

[00:39:03] So we’re working on One Communication in that way, but I think from a One Health point of view, translationally, it’s interesting, we’re seeing a lot of One Health translational medicine focus coming from dogs to [00:39:15] humans, as I’m sure you’ve talked about with some people, right?

[00:39:17] >> James Jacobson: Well, that’s what I’m fascinated with, because I mean, this podcast started back in 2008, sort of, as a way to talk about a book that is the Dog Cancer Survival Guide, which is the best selling animal health book in the English language or something like that. [00:39:30] And, you know, so many people read that book. And then commented that not only was it helpful for their dogs with cancer, but when they or someone else, there’s like, why don’t you have a human person’s survival [00:39:45] guide for cancer. Person’s, I don’t know, whatever, people’s survival guide.

[00:39:48] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Human person instead of a dog person. I agree.

[00:39:50] >> James Jacobson: So I’ve heard that anecdotally, but you’re saying that there are other things where people like, like the way that things are communicated as it relates to their pets that could have applicability [00:40:00] for people.

[00:40:00] >> Dr. Jules Benson: So I think on the communication side, we’re taking more advantage of the human side. I think from the medical side, you’re talking about the translational medicine side, I think when we look at cancer as a kind of hotbed of how do we use understanding of canine cancer to [00:40:15] learn more about human cancer?

[00:40:16] Like we’re seeing more and more of that research being focused as well, and I know that many of the oncologists that you’ll have had on over the years, whether it’s Craig Clifford or Sue Ettinger, like, I know they have it, they have interests and are often asked to be involved in translational medicine [00:40:30] efforts.

[00:40:30] So I think from a One Health perspective, how can we take our learning in either space and translate that over? The other area that’s seeing a lot of press at the moment is around increasing health span of pets. There’s a couple of drugs coming on the market soon, or are being tested and have [00:40:45] conditional FDA approvals that might extend the health span of pets.

[00:40:50] Now that that’s, you know, we’re seeing GLP-1 drugs in humans, for example. We’re seeing rapamycin, we’re seeing some really interesting things in human life extension. And I think we’ll [00:41:00] see more and more of that crossover between human and animal health as well.

[00:41:03] >> James Jacobson: Do you think that might be on obesity? People may be getting a doggy Ozempic someday?

[00:41:08] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I mean, we already had an attempt at that with Slentrol, which was launched about 15 or 20 years ago, and it’s not a [00:41:15] GLP-1, so it’s not the same class, but we certainly had a drug that was aimed at obesity in pets.

[00:41:18] >> James Jacobson: Yeah.

[00:41:19] >> Dr. Jules Benson: And I just had the opportunity to speak to the leader of the Dog Aging Project recently, and they’re doing some amazing work over there. But the one thing we can agree on and that does extend life at the moment, [00:41:30] is calorie restriction. So we know that for humans and dogs, calorie restriction has a really profound impact, not just on healthspan, but also on things like, you know, cancer incidents as well.

[00:41:41] So if we have a wonder drug that allows us to eat less and [00:41:45] not feel so bad about it, I think the implications for what that means for healthspan for humans is causing a lot of conversation at the moment. And I think, you know, certainly if we have the opportunity for that in pets now, the difference is we have direct control over what our pets eat. Now, that sounds like the easiest thing in the world [00:42:00] to, to, uh, make sure that they’re getting, they’re getting what they need and no more, but we know that’s not the case.

[00:42:06] And so in our often convenience focused lifestyles, we may get some pharmacological, you know, intervention or help at that at some point, who knows?

[00:42:13] >> James Jacobson: We love having you on the show [00:42:15] because, uh, you have such a wide spectrum of things to talk about, Dr. Benson.

[00:42:19] >> Dr. Jules Benson: I appreciate that.

[00:42:20] >> James Jacobson: I want to thank you so much for being with us today. I encourage folks to Visit ThePetHealthZone.com and learn things about your own dog. You can [00:42:30] also compare it and I guess you actually can type in your email. Does that subject people to a lot of like marketing emails or is it just basically I don’t, I haven’t done it

[00:42:38] >> Dr. Jules Benson: You get some more information about. You may get some emails about your opportunities to take that health insurance as well.

[00:42:42] >> James Jacobson: Okay. Dr. Jules Benson, thank [00:42:45] you so much for being with us today.

[00:42:46] >> Dr. Jules Benson: Awesome. Thanks, James.

[00:42:48] >> Molly Jacobson: Thank you again to Dr. Jules Benson of Nationwide Pet Insurance, and thank you, listener. Do you have pet insurance? Have you used the Pet HealthZone already to get a sneak peek [00:43:00] into your dog or cat’s future? Go to DogCancer.com/ask to share your own story. Remember to like and subscribe to Dog Cancer Answers wherever you listen to podcasts so you’ll never miss an episode.

[00:43:13] And as always, visit [00:43:15] DogCancer.com for show notes and tons of help for navigating dog cancer. For all of us here at Dog Podcast Network, I’m Molly Jacobson wishing you and your dog a very warm, aloha.[00:43:30]

[00:43:31] >> Announcer: Thank you for listening to Dog Cancer Answers. If you’d like to connect, please visit our website at DogCancer.com, or call our listener line at (808) 868-3200. And here’s a friendly reminder that you [00:43:45] probably already know, this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It’s not meant to take the place of the advice you receive from your dog’s veterinarian.

[00:43:54] Only veterinarians who examine your dog can give you veterinary advice or diagnose your dog’s medical [00:44:00] condition. Your reliance on the information you hear on this podcast is solely at your own risk. If your dog has a specific health problem, contact your veterinarian. Also, please keep in mind that veterinary information can change rapidly, therefore, some information may be out of date.

[00:44:06] Dog [00:44:15] Cancer Answers is a presentation of Maui Media in association with Dog Podcast Network.